This month we’re talking about the value of inclusive education, both in the UK and around the world. We hear from disability rights advocate Maria Njeri about the difference inclusive education would have made to her school experience. We also chat to Kyle Eldridge to get his views on integrated schools in the UK and catch up with Orpa Ogot who works on the Girls’ Education Challenge Transition programme in Kenya. She tells us how they’ve been keeping children learning throughout the pandemic. Music: Sun Shine by Cymatix provided by Premiumbeat.
This month we’re talking about the value of inclusive education, both in the UK and around the world.
We hear from disability rights advocate Maria Njeri about the difference inclusive education would have made to her school experience. We also chat to Kyle Eldridge to get his views on integrated schools in the UK and catch up with Orpa Ogot who works on the Girls’ Education Challenge Transition programme in Kenya. She tells us how they’ve been keeping children learning throughout the pandemic.
Music: Sun Shine by Cymatix provided by Premiumbeat.
Relevant links:
Read more from Maria: https://www.leonardcheshire.org/our-impact/stories/impact-uk-aid-inclusive-education
Learn about the Maria Njeri Foundation: https://www.facebook.com/The-Njeri-Maria-Foundation-184855241540744/
Find out more about inclusive education: https://www.leonardcheshire.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/Every-Learner-Matters.pdf
Follow us on Twitter and Instagram @LeonardCheshire
Maria Njeri: So I think inclusive education gives opportunities where there are none.
Kyle James Eldridge: If you don’t put the practical steps of mixing people with disabilities and people without disabilities together, how can you pursue your equality agenda for your government really?
Orpa Ogot: The flood was not pandemic-related, covid-related, but when it came and people were really poor and couldn’t go to work, it even made life worse for the girls.
Erin O’Reilly: Hello and welcome to The Disability Download. The Disability Download is brought to you by pan-disability charity Leonard Cheshire. I’m Erin O’Reilly, and on this podcast, we respond to current topics, share stories and open up conversations about disability. For this month’s episode we’re talking all about inclusive education. So during lockdown and throughout the whole pandemic education has been a hugely important topic – people are wondering how are children going to carry on learning from home, how will families be able to support that, when will schools reopen and what does that look like when they do. And you know that’s something that’s really affected children all round the world. For disabled children – and their families – having access to education and the support that comes with that is so important – not just during this time, but all the time.
So in this episode I catch up with Orpa Ogot who works on the Girls’ Education Challenge programme in Kenya. So it’s an inclusive education programme which helps girls with disabilities access quality education. She tells us how the programme has had to adapt during lockdown and the things that they’ve been doing to ensure that children can still access support and continue to learn throughout the pandemic. I then also chat Maria Njeri, who’s a disability rights advocate from Kenya. We kind of talk much more generally about the importance of inclusive education and the difference that having access to a programme like that would have made to her life when she was at school. And we also speak to Kyle to get that UK perspective on inclusive education and he tells us what his school experience was like at an integrated school. So first up, let’s hear from Maria.
So Maria thank you so much for joining us today. Obviously inclusive education can probably mean a lot of different things to different people and I think in some countries where maybe girls aren’t necessarily encouraged to go to school in the first place, inclusive education can be even more so important. What would your school experience have been like had you had access to an inclusive education programme?
Maria Njeri: Thank you so much Erin for having me. I want to say inclusive education is really a big investment in our societies and our communities. For me, I think there would have been a huge difference if when I was learning there was inclusive education. First I think school would have been something to look forward to. I didn’t like going to school, I didn’t feel like I belonged in school. And of course inclusive education would have minimised the stigma and discrimination that a child with a disability faces when they encounter other children in a school set up. Secondly I think my teachers would have been more accommodating and more inclusive had they received training on inclusive education. They would have been more aware and knowledgeable about how to handle me and how to interact with me. And also inclusive education ensures there are available teaching assistants with a background in special education. This would have relieved the pressure on teachers but also assisted me in catching up the curriculum if there was inclusive education when I was in school. I think I missed out on a lot of things on the school curriculum including PE classes, and music classes and reading in the reading class. That’s mainly because the teachers did not have the time or the knowledge to include me in the school programme. I love playing the piano a lot, but I was a bit slow. But because the teachers did not have the knowledge on how to approach it, didn’t get the chance to learn how to play the piano. So I think inclusive education gives opportunities where there are none.
Erin: Yeah, so would you say school for you was like the students and teachers made assumptions about you and your abilities based on your disability but actually they didn’t really know anything about it. And had they had the training and the knowledge they would have realised you could do it, you just might have needed some extra support?
Maria: Yeah
Erin: Yeah
Maria: Yeah exactly that. And also we have the assumptions and the conscious and unconscious biases where we already conclude that a child cannot do something or they cannot read the book along with the other students. But we come to conclusions about the child without giving them the opportunity and investing time and effort into them.
Erin: Obviously you’ve kind of touched on your own experience with inclusive education and why it would have been so important to you and would have shaped your kind of school experience – on a more general level, why do you think inclusive education programmes are so important? Especially for girls and girls with disabilities in particular?
Maria: Inclusive education programmes are so important for girls especially because it gives them a sense of belonging and a sense of value. In our culture, girls are not given as much of a value, they are raised up to be mothers and wives. And for girls with disabilities that’s written out of the picture. And that’s a value the community gives girls. So having a good school already gives them a sense that they belong somewhere else other than their community. And also they have a sense of value. And out of the many girls I’ve met who have managed to go from primary through to high school and most of them say no one in my community or in my family but this bet on me. No one thought I would learn and get to where I got. And many of them end up being more fulfilled than the girls who never went to school. So I believe it also gives them a sense of achievement that even if you have a disability, there’s something more you can do. You can learn, and that’s a very big thing in their communities.
Erin: So in terms of kind of inclusive education programmes obviously the UK has done a lot in the past in terms of supporting children with disabilities into school, what difference do you feel UK Aid makes in providing opportunities for young people with disabilities?
Maria: Wow that’s a big one! Cause I mean think about Leonard Cheshire’s programmes, the Girls’ Education Challenge programme and the hundreds of girls who have been educated, not only in Kenya but around Africa. The UK Aid has provided an opportunity that, it would be unfortunate to say this, but, our government would not have provided, such an opportunity to girls and children with disabilities. And this is basic access to education for all children regardless of their circumstance or impairment. Also the discrimination, now I believe now that if we have inclusive education and inclusive education are permanent in many of our schools, there would be less discrimination in our societies. And now I can even see when we are talking about inclusion it would be easier in 5 years or 10 years to come because of the training now of greater inclusive education. So they already have a platform of interaction and exposure. And also I believe the UK Aid has really demystified and sensitised society on the importance of education for all. Everyone deserves to go to school, everyone needs to go to school and other students are going in with the respect, and the value and the belonging for each other. And this will have a ripple effect in all of our society,
Erin: Definitely, I think like you said it starts from a young age and if children go to schools then it just completely changes their opportunities moving forward. Well thank you so much Marie for joining us on the podcast we really appreciate your time.
Maria: Thank you so much I had a very good time, speak again soon!
Erin: Next our Campaigns Support Officer Joshua Reeves has a chat with Kyle to find out what his experience was like at schools in the UK. Kyle’s views are his own.
Joshua: Can you introduce yourself please Kyle?
Kyle James Eldridge: Sure, Hello, my name is Kyle Jamie Eldridge and I'm a volunteer for Leonard Cheshire.
Josh: OK, and um. Obviously it's it's good to have you on the podcast today. What was your school experiences like Kyle?
Kyle: They were all inclusive. Yeah I still remember the behavioural difficulties I incurred in nursery, I still remember going throughout years I used to attend weekly meetings with other disabled pupils in primary school as well as secondary. Yeah it was very, it was very inclusive indeed.
Josh: So obviously your schools were very inclusive. That’s good. How do you think that your school experience would have been difficult if it weren’t integrated and would you think that it would have changed your approach to university?
Kyle: Well I think it would have been very different really because, I think it was very good actually due to the fact that my school’s were integrated because it gave me the unique experience while I was at school. It gave me an understanding of what the real world was like and how to engage with common people really. I was watching a video earlier, it was a special school in Cenarth and even they recognised how they were trying to push the boundaries and disabled people and making their experience as tied with the needs of the modern world. And I feel like I didn’t have that exposure to what was happening in the real world with children at regular school, how would I be up to date with what’s happening in politics, what would I know what’s happening up to date with things on the news really?
I think being exposed to a normal school life is very good actually because like speaking of issues that are in school of like safeguarding. Speaking in issues in schools like sexual education. As well as…and I think that was great for university really because when you’re in university it’s a whole different ball game when you go to university really. Because when students go there they, they’re expected to live independently and ones that are expected to go to lectures and do everything off their own back really. And without that exposure in school, I don’t think university was possible really. Because once you graduate from university, you’re asked the question what are you going to do? Are you going to do a masters? Are you going to go into employment? Just what I feel like at school is, disability people I think it really hones your social skills really. Cause if you’re at school and you’re autistic really, I mean you do have a fertile ground to assess your social skills at school. People may look at you differently for your autism and disability, but it does give you the opportunity to do that. And then that is very important in university once you strike up friendships with people and all that. And you go to these, you go to meet people and have been invited to the schools and colleges and the unis, guest speakers and employers – if you don’t end up speaking to them, if you don’t end up going outside of your own shell at these educational then how are you going to progress in life?
Because I, I mean there’s some employers who I have met in school, some people I’ve met in college or employers I’ve met in university. If I didn’t have that practice in my social skills at school, how would I make, how would I progress my own future and my learning really? Because going to university and just remaining inside my own skin and not mingling with anyone really, that would seem really pretty hard at university, Because if you’re not open minded and I mean then you’re not going to succeed. There’s some examples of when people, they didn’t go to university on the grounds that they didn’t have the confidence to go to university and I thought to myself well they’ve just done FE colleges, FE courses at college. Whereas I met the Director of Cardiff University, I speak to him a lot and his project that he does to get disabled children into university, which many people go over those confidence issues. And these disabled people that go onto university, they actually achieve quite a lot really. And I feel like that exposure within inclusivity schools is extremely important. As well, well I think to myself is I always felt like I was treated differently in schools. But I thought to myself, we’re all the same really and what is normal? What is normal absolutely? Because I mean with common people, in some ways they get the answers wrong whereas disabled people, or people who have autism and all that, some of them are extremely bright. And it just shows, it’s more with quality. And I feel like people with disabilities, I feel like inclusive schools are excellent for them.
Josh: Yeah I agree, I think that obviously you’ve got to get to the right school I guess. For me I was very isolated but then again, you’ve got to like hit the right jackpot really in the right school for the individual really. I think that yeah it is important for disabled people to be integrated, because you like I said you can get other students or other pupils to recognise that disability is just a label. So yeah. The other question I want to ask you is that obviously you…why are inclusive schools so important, not just for disabled students but for students without disabilities too?
Kyle: Well inclusive schools are important really because as I mentioned before, it’s exposure. Because if you don’t not have disabled students in school how do they know about the real world? And vice versa really, because if you don’t have students who don’t see people with disabilities…I remember when I went to school, when I went to England, you don’t see disabled people that much where I lived. I mean you’ve got inclusive schools, but you’ve got a special school down the road, a special school they go to. There was a lot of prejudice when I was at school about common schools and people with disabilities really. And that’s the thing, if these disabled people weren’t in the schools, or the colleges or the universities, then I think prejudice builds among the common students really. Because they don’t understand disabled people and they may think they’re ‘cripples’ and they may think they’ve got ‘poor abilities’. And yeah it’s a common thing where prejudice grows if it’s based on fear. People don’t understand. And I feel like more common students being exposed to disabled students, it really exposes them to change their mindset really. And I feel like, I mean it’s not pushing equality down their throats really but when you think of it disabled people are human beings too. I mean what separates them from common people? Why can’t they attend the same school? And I feel like with them in the same school system I think that really exposes them together. And I feel like it breaks the ice and discourages prejudice really.
And I think that’s very important as well and I feel like that’s on a groundwork point of view as well. And I feel like it’s important as well because well I mean when you think of it on an educational basis really, it’s just like, I mean it’s embedded in law. It’s law to give equal opportunities to anyone, regardless of their disability. And I feel like people with disabilities at school have got more of a chance in life than common students really. And I think it’s incumbent on the schools to do that by the law. As well as colleges, as well as universities, as well as employers as well. Because if you don’t put the practical steps of inclusion in, I mean the government are just gonna think ‘oh that’s fine we’ll just have section for disabled people and just have section for common students’ really. And then society won’t really be equality really. It’s like it’s very important for the government to really do this now, because it’s practical because you’re dealing with children’s lives. I mean school is when they go into the school system when they’re nearly 3 years old and they get out of the school system when they’re in their 20s, 30s even 40s. I mean doesn’t matter. Students go back to university whenever. And if you don’t put the practical steps of mixing people with disabilities and people without disabilities together, how can you pursue your equality agenda for your government really?
Josh: Yeah, I agree. I think it's just been built in people’s minds, really and it's important to get the choice of whether you wanna go to an integrated school but also a specialized school. And I just think that sometimes teachers have got to know that disabled people can, some disabled people can work the same speeds as non-disabled people and basically learn the same, the same amount of work that’s provided to them as non-disabled people. I think that it's just, basically written down and teachers gotta know that disabled people are the same and can be learned exactly the same as non-disabled people personally. But yeah, thank you Kyle anyway for being on this podcast. I hope to do one again with you soon! Thank you.
Kyle: Thank you!
Erin: And finally I catch up with Orpa who’s working on our Girls’ Education Programme out in Kenya. Orpa’s been working really hard to help ensure that children continue learning at this time and working hard herself. So just as a precursor you might here some children in the background of the interview, but I think that just speaks volumes for the times that we’re in right now and what we’re all doing to adapt and continue our hard work. So let’s hear from Orpa!
So Orpa thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Could you just start by explaining what your role is and the type of work that you do on inclusive education programmes?
Orpa Ogot: I’m a technical inclusive education advisor, and that means I work with different stakeholders, ensuring that Leonard Cheshire’s approach to inclusive education is taken in by the different stakeholders. And this means that I work with teachers, all teachers, we basically need to ensure that they are trained. Teachers are made to understand what inclusive education is, to understand their role at school level and understand what the children do, what the needs of the children are, those especially of children with disabilities, and we also work with the school stakeholders to create accessible learning environments.
So it’s basically ensuring that our schools where we are working are accessible. But that means it’s not just the physical learning environment, it also means that the learning materials also become accessible. The other area that we target is ensuring that parents and families understand their children, so that the children can live in a home where their needs are met, and they’re also enabled to come to school. The other area of my work is working with, basically the minister of education, other ministries, and civil society because it’s about ensuring that inclusive education is institutionalised as an issue of the people and the government. So that is where we come in with advocacy, but also in ensuring that they’re understanding their roles.
Basically, this would be taken, without inclusive education, they would think that children must land in irregular, in special schools, in segregated schools. And also, we work with people in the basic education of the children. So all these make inclusive education become a reality in every country where we work, like in Kenya, where we’re currently working in the GEC project.
Erin: So, just to explain that to our listeners, so that’s the Girls’ Education Challenge project, isn’t it?
Orpa: Yes.
Erin: So obviously the pandemic has been affecting countries all around the world in kind of grinding things to a halt and changing the way that things are operating. So, how has the pandemic affected the girl’s education challenge, and how have you been supporting families and children to carry on learning during the lockdown?
Orpa: Yeah, the pandemic really affected learning. Seriously affected learning, because when schools were closed, children had to go home. And I think in this country, where people have never been used to having children at home for a long time, it’s been one of the nightmares, having children home and for Leonard Cheshire children, girls who have disabilities, having them home. And so we were worried and already we realised it was going happen that when girls are just now at home and they are not doing anything, then you find that issues of child protection and safeguarding also become an issue. We are getting cases of children, girls being filed, but also we realise that then learning will also stop, because at home, these are children who are coming from some of the most disadvantaged families.
Sometimes, the disabilities are caused by factors that I guess are poverty-related. So, many of these parents also are parents who are less guided, they are not likely to make their children be able to learn at home. So learning is also affected. But the pandemic came with its own issues, because again, even economically, the families became impoverished because people are not going to work. So in those areas that’s how we know the girls are affected, there are living in families where the parents were not going to work, and some of the youth – some people just lost their jobs. And during this pandemic we also had these terrible floods, which also really affected how the pandemic was affecting people, because people even lost their homes in various areas where we work. The flood was not pandemic-related, covid-related, but when it came and people were really poor and couldn’t go to work, it made life even worse for the girls.
Erin: So what sorts of things have you been doing then, during this time, to try and help ensure that children are still able to learn during the lockdown and carry on that education?
Orpa: We’ve been part of developing an information resource pack about COVID-19, and this one has been shared by UNICEF, we gave it to UNICEF because it’s one document that was going to help people to understand how to work with children who have disabilities at home. Because, now we can attempt learning, but here, our girls are quarantined and staying at home, so part of that information pack, that resource pack, is also about how parents can also work with their children: [for example] “if my child has visual impairment, and I want to support their learning, how would I do it?” Because of some of these things that parents thought, we had not thought of bringing [in] parents in 2019 and then also thought they’d have to become teachers [in 2020].
So this pack was also meant to be also a way of creating awareness, for parents that we used to raise awareness on radio, so that parents understand how they can work with their children, if a children has an impairment, how they can work with their children when they are teaching them at home: “What would you do?” If your girl has a hearing impairment, if your girl has intellectual disability, what type of information would you need? So that was in that same pack, and other things in terms of how children can be protected. But again, we were ensuring that children…we kept on monitoring, using, at the moment, phones, call making. We’re making calls at home to ensure, to check how the children were learning, that they were not loitering; some teachers were sending children papers, as in exam papers, so they could continue learning. But one area of learning that we needed even still, we continued to train teachers. We were supposed to abandon training. Still teachers were still also communicating with their children; our staff were communicating to ensure that children were learning, were using their books; there were also radio lessons, from the Kenyan National KFKCD Kenya, the Institute of Curriculum Development on the radio and also television. But these could not be accessed by all children. So children who could not access these were being supported by peers, older brothers, but also by teachers still supporting them from distance. Because of their phones, teachers could send assignments for the children to do, and that was what was happening during COVID.
Erin: Is there talk now of children going back to school any time soon, and how are you kind of preparing for that for the future?
Orpa: One thing that we are doing and that we want to do, is ensure that we work with the government, with very important government ministries. We are going to work with the Minister of Education, we are going to work with the Minister of the Interior, that is in charge of the local administration, because this is going to be very important so that when children are going to get back to school we are sure that they are going to be protected, they are going to go to schools that are going to take care of their safety in terms of contracting the sickness. So that is one area. Before the other area is long, but it will also mean a lot of sensitisation. We are still likely to use the radio, we are still likely to use the short messages so that parents are prepared, when their children are going to school, to ensure that the way to school is safe, and also that when the children are in school, how they will interact.
This is part of what we are planning, and again when they are going to get back to school, we are going to provide individualised support to learners, these girls with disabilities. Because of their protection, we are going to ensure, there are others who have been abused, so maybe we are still working with them on psychosocial support. We are going to be providing individualised support for learners, for these girls with disabilities who have experienced child protection issues. Because, at this stage, when they are going to back to school, some people may hear that they were abused, so how is this child going to get back to school? Because that means the school has to be prepared – the whole school, in terms of the teachers, in terms of the peers, so these are things that we really take into consideration. And the other one is that we are going to sensitise the teachers, and the headteachers, because they are the ones who are supposed to ensure that the school is accessible, as well as that the school…how they will ensure they’re social distancing, what’ll be happening.
So a lot of sensitisation for the headteachers, teachers, and the school board of management – very important. It becomes a better way of getting it, while some of the meetings of the bottom will too, or any other person…but we’ll do what we can to ensure that they understand that when children are coming back to school, they are coming back to a safe environment. Safety in terms of the fact that the schools have been closed for a very long time and it is not a strange place [for the children]. But also safety in terms of the covid-19: how is social distancing ensured. What will the government be doing, but they also have to do what the government says. But we know our girls are very vulnerable so we have to take extra precautions when they are going back, to ensure that everything is correct.
The other thing I wanted to say is that we will continue to provide assistive devices. When they [the children] come back, some of the assistive devices may be broken, because when they were at school the teachers and our staff used to monitor them, but now that they’ve been at home you may find a child with a hearing aid, but the hearing aid won’t be working [for example]. So that is one thing that we will really ensure, that when the girls are coming back, we’ll ensure that those with assistive devices, their assistive devices will be working well. And I said that we trained during COVID-19, we are going also to make sure that we look forward, that the teachers who were trained virtually, what are they going to do to change their duties from old fashioned learning, what would they be doing better? Now that because these are people who should also be able to understand the issues of COVID-19. So basically these are some of the things we are starting to plan, so that when children are going back to school, we will ensure that the environment they are going to go to is safe.
Erin: that’s great, thank you so much Orpa for explaining all of that. It’s really interesting to hear how you’re sort of adapting and preparing as well.
Orpa: Thank you.
Erin: So I think we’ve heard some really interesting perspectives on inclusive education and the value of those programmes and what it means to different people. And we’ve also learned a lot about the hard work that’s been going on around the world to ensure that children with disabilities are supported during this time. And the work that’s been going on during lockdown to adapt and continue that learning during what is a very uncertain time. As always we really want to know what you think and if there’s any topics you’d like us to cover in future episodes. So please do email us at disabilitydownload@leonardcheshire.org or DM us on Twitter or Instagram, we’re @LeonardCheshire on both. And please do remember to like, share and subscribe to this podcast! Thanks so much for listening, stay safe everyone, until next time, I’m Erin and that his has been The Disability Download.